Webasto Heaters
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         Sailnet/TOG Tayana List 

  www.webasto.us/am/en/am_marine_heaters.html 

   Our T37 came with the Dickenson Arctic heater.  Learning curve for us.  It must be clean, clean, clean when you first fire it up.  follow the owners manual.  Ours just had 'a little soot' in the area of the burner hole. My wife fired it up the first time.  Started easily, looked nice and went downhill from there.  (Diesel smoke is very oily for the uninitiated)  More checking showed a few potential problems.  We are gravity feed from the bow tank.  it runs through an automotive type sediment bowl/filter then a pressure regulator.  Those all needed to be cleaned.  Then the 'carburetor' needed cleaned.  Not really a carb, but a float bowl/needle valve regulator. After all that and several internal soot cleanings it seems to be working ok, with the exception of a slow drip at one of the copper connections between the regulator and the stove.  Hard to get the copper bent sharply enough to make it all fit.  I'm sure it will fit, just need to hold your mouth right when assembling.

   We put a Webasto forced air diesel heater in our other boat and like it real well.  Our only sailing at this time is in the Pacific Northwest from November to March.  Did I mention condensation prior to the Webasto?  We had a force 10 bulkhead kerosene heater prior to the Webasto.  Might be OK for an occasional snappy morning, but definitely not for winter cruising in the PNW.

   The Webasto is easy to install and maintain, runs on a thermostat and is out of the way.  We ran the ducting through the lockers with outlets strategically placed where my wife’s cold feet can always find them. Warm porcelain in the morning can be a good thing.

   If the Dickenson continues to belch out diesel soot, it's gone and a Webasto will take it's place.

Michael Kahler	S/V Liberation		PH 37					     October 2003
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   Practical Sailor says that the Webasto brand is one of the best heating systems.  It's built by a company in Seattle: www.suremarine.com/body.htm . Never heard of the unit and they are not cheap.  But, they have a great reputation.  

fyi, John Hovan									    February 2004
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   I looked at the Webasto and had someone come out and give me an estimate to install such a system on my boat.  They have two systems and the only one that seemed like an appropriate choice for my boat was a diesel fired unit used circulating coolant to distribute the heat to radiators located around the boat. 
 
   After discussing the various options with the prospective installer I decided that it was going to cost too much and require too much maintenance.  
 
   The also offer forced air heaters but routing the ducting around the boat would have been a chore and taken up a lot of room. 
 
John Lewis										      October 2004
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   With all the talk of cabin heaters, I did some research on Webasto and Espar units.  Both of these units are considered the "Porsches" of heaters from what I read.
 
   Espar is one brand of diesel heater that uses forced air.  List price is around  $4,200 for the 5LC unit which would work in a Tayana.  Below is a website to obtain the manuals on their products....They also sell hydronic units as well.  Most research I read, says to stay away from hydronic units on smaller boats due to complexity and maintenance etc. 
www.espar.com/htm/tecmans.htm
 
   Webasto is a second brand with costs around $3,200 for their AT 5000 unit which would work in a Tayana.  Again, the below website is not listed, but contains all their manuals.... 
 www.techwebasto.com/blueheat_main.htm .
   
   Both units are made in Germany according to the Espar distributor in Rhode Island.  He said the factories are right down the road from each other.  I asked why the Espar was so much more money and he spoke about distribution channel's etc.  Webasto doesn't have as many middlemen.
 
   One issue I see with both these styles of heaters that are considered "forced air" versus types like Dickinson which are considered "draft" is that the exhaust lines need to be channeled out of the stern of the boat well above the water line.  I already had a heater exhaust cap in my coach roof, but both manufacturers recommended not using a coach roof exhaust.  Thus, the most likely installation for a unit is in the cockpit locker.  Some folks didn't like the fact that the unit is operating in the locker where you couldn't see it.  The other issue would be routing the ducting forward in the boat.  With Tayana lockers etc, this can be a bit of an issue.  I believe both manufacturers recommended around 4-5 vents within the cabin off the main distribution line.
 
   I see the advantage of the forced air type of heater is the complete lack of diesel smell.  Has anyone had good luck with bulkhead mounted heaters?  I really hate the smell of diesel and would like to have some heat while anchoring on cold nights.  I froze my Christmas ornaments off in Matagorda Bay last year around the holidays.  No fun!
 
John Hovan	s/v Celtic Dream							      October 2004
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Gerard,
    If I was ready to buy a high end unit, I also would choose Webasto.  I think the Espar unit is simply too much money.  The Espar rep even admitted that their unit cost was somewhat higher.  
 
John Hovan										     October 2004
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Hi John,
    I installed a Webasto HBW2010 hydronic heater on our Tayana 42CC last winter after much research and it has worked wonderfully (knock-on-wood) so far.  We have many live aboard friends here in the Pacific Northwest who have both air and hydronic Webasto's and Espar's.  In the months leading up to this project, I asked dealers and friends the pros and cons of both.  The majority of live boards who had air units complained of frequent maintenance and down time, cold v-berths and hot aft quarters.  The Espar air and hydronic units tend to have a bad reputation of frequent breakdowns and expensive replacement parts.  
 
   Maybe it's because of Sure Marine, Inc's great customer service and marketing in this region that Webasto appears to be the Pacific Northwest's leader in marine heat.  Choosing the hydronic unit was obvious for us since we are year round live boards and the advantages of dispersed even heat and dry hanging lockers are indispensable.  The hydronic systems are, in my opinion, safer than the air units because they do not blow ultra-hot air requiring insulated high-temp ducting.  Also, the combustion chamber is encapsulated in a thick coolant "tank" versus a glowing hot barrier with air blowing across it.  I have heard complaints of air unit heat exchangers developing holes where hot gasses escape into the cabin heating air.  
 
   The installation was time consuming as I re-insulated the engine compartment with lead-lined sound suppressing foam in the process.  One of the advantages of a hydronic unit is not having to drill large air duck holes from the unit to the air outlets - one only needs to drill holes for the 3/4-inch coolant supply and return lines.  The coolant lines can meander through hanging lockers and other stowage where dryness is desired and mild heat isn't a problem - however, one must be careful to install bleeder valves at every high point and never exceed the height of the main supply tank.  Sure Marine's installation manuals are very clear and detailed in this regard - the great thing is, all are available on-line at www.suremarine.com/manuals/ for free.
 
   Yet another benefit of the hydronic system is that you can use the engine to heat the boat via the same coolant loop with the installation of a few valves.  This same setup will allow you to preheat your engine as well.  Also, you can run the loop through your water heater.
 
   Pictures of my installation are at http://www.floatingzoo.com/heater.  Let me know if you have any questions.  Needless to say, I strongly recommend Sure Marine, Inc.  Very nice folks willing to help and give great advice for the do-it-yourselfer.  As for price, all said and done was about $3200.
 
   Good luck!
 
Michael Johnson	S/V Rivendell		 1981 Tayana 42CC			      October 2004
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   Thanks John!  We took our time with it.  You only need one buffer tank and one expansion tank in most installations.  The expansion tank is only filled 1/2-way and has a filler cap much like the one on your car radiator - it's mounted at the highest possible level to provide a good "water head" to the circulation pump and to allow you to fill the system with coolant (we used the propylene glycol antifreeze which is non-toxic beware of the polyethylene glycol which is more common but very toxic).
 
   The buffer tank is used as a "battery" of heat to keep the Webasto from short-cycling (switching on and off too often) which increases the maintenance intervals and decreases the unit's life.  The basic rule of thumb with hydronic systems is to have as much water in the system as possible - Sure Marine recommends a minimum of 10 gallons, we have about 9 in ours.  I wasn't willing to put in another 5 gallon buffer tank and it turns out our system is running just fine with no short cycles.  Also, you can use an Everhot water heater in place of a buffer tank - this is basically a tank full of hot circulated antifreeze with a coil of fresh tap water inside to give you cold water in and instant hot tap water out (kind of the reverse of a Force 10 water heater which has a small coil of coolant surrounded by tap water).  We routed our coolant through an existing Force 10 water heater so that we could use electric in the summer to heat our water.  There is a good explanation of all this here:  www.suremarine.com/manuals  - although they recommend installing both which I don't think is necessary.  By the way, this is a GREAT manual with diagrams and everything - be sure to check it out no matter what heater you install, it's very interesting!
 
   The exhaust system runs out the starboard side of our boat just under the toe rail and directly above the rub rail.  It is as far aft and as high up as I was able to install it considering our boat has a center cockpit and that I wanted to keep the unit in the engine compartment yet stay within the maximum recommended 10 foot exhaust run.  The outlet is about 10 feet forward of the stern in an area that doesn't (I should say hasn't-yet) submerge when heeling as far over as I feel comfortable.  When off shore or in extreme weather, I would definitely put a rubber plug in the outlet and pull the fuse so that the unit cannot switch on with the exhaust plugged.  We have sailed in the Puget Sound with the unit running heeling over in about 25 knots with no problems - I was keeping a close eye on the outlet the whole time but the water never came close to lapping over.
 
Michael & Sara Johnson								      October 2004
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Michael,
   I guess I made the right choice.  What you have to say about the Webasto water system is so far the same as what I have experienced. The whole heating system is being shipped this week. Any "Tips" on installing would be helpful.

   We have a T-55 and I hope the HBW2010 will be sufficient for our boat also. We are installing the Furnace in the aft lazarette. We also have 6 radiator heaters throughout the boat. 120 ft of tubing, and we are not plumbing through the engine. The whole package ran $5,100.00 so far.

   It will be nice to be able to spend time on the boat during the winter which has been so long and cold these past few years.
 
Gerard		Dragon Dance								     October 2004
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Hi Gerard,
    I think the best resource for me during our installation was Sure Marine, Inc.  Specifically, their 44 page DBW2010 installation manual which has excellent diagrams and good points for installations on sailboats: www.suremarine.com/manuals.  I stuck to the "rules" in this manual as closely as I could and so far have been very happy.  
 
   The only big rule I broke was the fuel line routing.  I did not use a separate pickup but instead tapped into the main pickup immediately after our Racor filter using a T-fitting and one-way spring-ball check-valve on both the engine side and Webasto side of the Tee.  These check-valves in the fuel line prevent air from being sucked in from the Webasto when the engine is running with Webasto off and visa-versa when the Webasto is running with engine off.  This has worked very well - we have tested running both scenarios including running both heater and engine under full power with no problems.
 
Michael & Sara Johnson								      October 2004
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   We have a similar setup on a Cal 44 down at Shilshole marina in Seattle.  We lived aboard for four winters (2000 ~ 2003) and the Webasto kept a family of four toasty throughout.  With so much use, we needed to ensure at least annual maintenance; otherwise the furnace exhaust would begin to smoke excessively.  All-in-all we have been extremely happy to have the consistent cabin heat which allows us year-round sailing in Puget Sound.
 
   A Sure Marine rep (Emerald Harbor Marine) installed the system for us in the port lazarette with a short exhaust run aft to just under the cap rail.  We have an expansion tank, a buffer tank, and an Everhot tank.  We installed a T-switch in the Webasto fluid lines to create a "winter" loop and a "summer" loop.  The winter loop cycles through the entire boat including the buffer and Everhot tanks.  The summer loop cycles only through the Everhot tank (for summer-time hot galley water & hot showers when we're on the hook and don't need to heat the boat ---- decadence).  We installed a second T-switch in our domestic water system so that we can choose between the standard water heater water (when on shore power or when we've motored for a while and have created plenty of hot water) and the Webasto/Everhot system.  These two T switches give us lots of options when deciding how we want to heat the boat and/or create hot water.
 
Bill Ashby	S/V Rhythm	 1984 Cal 44 #016					     October 2004
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   My husband and I just finished installing a Webasto hydronic system in our T-55, We did everything ourselves. It took us 170 hours from start to finish. We did have to create a piece of furniture to house one of the radiator heaters, and we did have to do other minor carpentry work here and there. Running the tubes was easy, a 1 ½ inch hole saw was used all over. Installing the furnace and exhaust pipes was the hardest part. 
 
   Yesterday we crossed our fingers and fired it up for the 1st time. It was fabulous. The hot water heaters (fan radiators) give off such a dry and even heat. We were surprised at how fast the boat went from 52deg. to 68deg. So far all systems have worked perfectly, and the people at the Webasto tech department were so unusually helpful. Especially Rich who at some times would spend 1 hour on the phone with us per call. 
 
   The whole system including extra electrical and plumbing parts came to $5,350.00 which included 6 radiators. 

   We definitely would recommend this system to anyone who is looking for a dry and efficient heating system. The whole project was fun and easy thanks to Rich - 800-821-0207,  Rich@navstore.com
 
Lisa and Gerard	T-55	Dragon Dance						      January 2005
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   We have a Webasto on our 'other' boat.  We like it real well.  We've had it for 5 years.  We come down from Alaska in the winter to play on Puget Sound and soak up some warmer weather.  
 
   Mount it where it is accessible.  They are not maintenance free.  The first year we had friends come on board and cycle it every couple weeks.  The igniter carboned up and had to be replaced.  After that we have just let it sit idle while we were gone.  Shut it off and walk away.  Went 2 seasons and had to replace the igniter and burner plate.  Two more seasons and I just did a rebuild, $260.  The burner was extremely carboned up.  I will clean the cabin out and salvage the igniter.  Rebuilding is extremely easy and does not require a workshop.  One torx wrench, Philips and a 10mm socket.
 
   We got ours from Sure Marine in Ballard, WA.  They are very helpful with Tech support and getting parts to you or repairs if you send it to them.
 
   We have the 3500 forced air on a 33' boat.  I think that is about maxed out.  We are looking at the hot water model for our Tayana.  The air ducts take up a lot of space and give up a lot of heat to whatever lockers they run through.
 
Good luck, Michael Kahler	S/V Liberation		T37PH				      January 2005
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   My husband and I installed a hot water Webasto heater on our boat this winter. It is wonderful and heats our 55-footer easily. It is an even heat and we have been staying on the boat in all sorts of cold weather and it is so cool.

   It burns up our stored fuel and we add fresh and are happy about turning over the fuel. We also bought from Sure Marine and were very happy with them. They walked us through the whole install and had such patience. Rich, the person we dealt with, was great.

   I did have an Espar forced air heater on a previous 37-foot Hunter and it was not "even" heat as the hot water system. At least that is what I found.
 
Lisa (Sensi?)	T-55									         April 2005
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