Force 10 Heaters
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              Sailnet/TOG Tayana List 

 				    www.force10.com/cozycabinheater.html 

Harvey, 
   I read your email with great interest. I had a Force 10 kerosene heater with pressure tank on board as well as a kerosene stove. I am converting the heater to propane through a kit offered by Force 10 and replacing the stove with propane. 

   There have been many threads on this subject on the liveaboard list found on Sailnet. From what I have learned from the experience of many others is that if you already have propane aboard for the galley stove then going with a propane heater makes sense. There appears to be much less hassle in using a propane heater just as there is much less hassle using a propane stove Vs diesel or kerosene. However, as you know, propane if not correctly installed with appropriate safeguards can be deadly. It seems to me that the manufacturers of propane appliances have come a long way with safety devices to prevent many of the accidents of the past and with careful installation it can be a safe and reliable method to heat and to cook. Personally, I feel it is the only way to go. 

   The Sailnet liveaboard list can be joined in the usual way and is found at liveaboard-list@sailnet.net . Also, search the liveaboard email archives to find the discussions on propane, diesel, kerosene, heaters, stoves, etc. Hope this helps, Harvey. 

John Keefe      SV ODYSSEA      Tayana 37						     January 2001 
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John, 
    Many thanks for the very helpful comments on the heater problem. I have just about decided to shift over to the Propane unit for the Cozy Cabin heater. We have a propane stove/oven, so the extension to the heater might not be too bad. Do you run the propane line from a Tee junction on the stove, or do you have a completely separate line all the way from the storage tank? Do you use a separate solenoid for the heater and another for the stove? I worry about running a rubber propane hose all that distance from the propane locker to the forward bulkhead in front of the head. What precautions did you take? Did you run it through a protective pipe? 
 
   I just installed a Blue Systems Solenoid, but it doesn't have a sniffer for propane gas. Do you have one? Which brand? Where did you install the sniffer? 
 
regards, Harvey									     January 2001
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Harvey,
   I do have a suggestion; stay with diesel, but switch to a Sigmar or Dickinson, and don't use a pressure tank. Use a gravity-fed tank. You may experience flare-ups when initially calibrating the unit's valve to your fuel flow, and until you get the hang of lighting it, but after that, you should 
not have any flare-ups. Having said that, the only real safety device on these heaters is a valve float bowl overflow. Also, on the Sigmar, it takes in air through a 3" opening on the bottom of the unit, intended for an equal-pressure intake pipe routed through the cabin (but not required). You can cut off the air to this intake opening and reduce or extinguish the flame. Never have been very satisfied with either the propane or diesel Cozy Cabin heaters...

Greg											    January 2001
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Greg,
    What was the reason for your dissatisfaction with the Cozy Cabin units?  One of the original things that was appealing was the small flue pipe hole through the coach roof.  I also thought that 6,000 BTUs should be adequate for a T-37. Problem is in the implementation.

Harvey											    January 2001
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Hello Harvey,
   My reasoning was two-fold.  I wasn't impressed with the design of the diesel Cozy Cabin from a combustion viewpoint, (I didn't even consider propane heaters, which differs from many on this list), and the size is inadequate for a boat with the interior space of the T-37 in anything but mild weather. 

   Our 18,000 BTU Sigmar can do it when the weather drops to 38f or so, but it requires lots of fan circulation. When it has dropped below that, the heater has to be turned up quite high and extra fans applied to keep the air moving. To be honest with you, in cold weather locales, I'd seriously consider a forced-air heater if the budget allows. Or both a bulkhead heater with the mica window for that fireplace effect, and forced-air. It's only money.

Greg											    January 2001
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   I recently (in the last month) installed a Force 10 Propane heater (bulkhead mount) which replaced a previous pressure kerosene Force 10 heater.  
 
   The previous setup required a tank or kerosene that could be pressurized and a short run to the heater.  Two years ago, when I first bought the boat, I removed it after managing to light the boat on fire in only one try.
 
   The propane heater requires a run of a propane feed hose back to the propane locker (according to ABYC, you can NOT 'Tee' two devices on the same hose inside the boat).  Running the hose turned out to be the usual pain but certainly doable.
 
   The unit is advertised to put out 6,000 BTU on high.  I don't know if it does or not.  What I do know is that you need a fan running full time to distribute the heat along with a CO detector, propane detector, and for safety another smoke/fire detector.  The unit I have has a built-in piezo (sp?) switch for starting and an oxygen depletion sensor to shut off the gas automatically if the oxygen level drops in the cabin (75% of normal, methinks).
 
   I don't run the unit all night.  I have friends who do.  They aren't dead [yet].  It creates LOTS of moisture inside the boat...like a rain forest at times thanks to the cold weather and the moisture created as propane burns.  Ergo, I have fans running all over the place and try to keep the locker doors open as much as possible.
 
   I have [living] friends with Dickenson heaters and Espar diesel fired units.  The heat is dry, you only need one source of fuel and you usually carry lots of that with you.  I also like the 'forced' heat which circulates.  The cleaning is a factor.
 
   Given my druthers, I'd rather have diesel.  Maybe next year.

Tad McDonald							              February 2002
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   Just to add further fuel to the fire ... 

   The Espar is nice and dry. The Force 10 diesel can be hazardous. I also had a serious fire with it, until I finally learned how to use it. I still don't trust it. It also is a pain as you end up with soot on the headliner, regardless of how careful you try to be. Unlike the Dickinson, it also doesn't really put out that much heat. They claim about 6,000 BTU. I don't what that means in comfort levels in a Tayana 37, but it takes a really long time to heat up the interior. The Espar does a great job, no soot, no moisture, no fire hazard. . 

   If we find ourselves in the Northwest for any length of time with our boat, I plan to install an Espar. 

regards, Harvey 									    February 2002
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Todd,
   You may well find that the Force 10 propane stove at about $250 or so can be installed in about 2 hours, and will not have the odor or residue that the diesel heater has. We love ours.

Bill Truxall										    February 2002
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I agree with Bill Truxall. The Force 10 'Shipmate' plus a 12-volt fan and you're in business.

Bib 'Okennon'										    February 2002
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Bill,
   How high above the cabin sole do you have your heater? The base of our Force 10 Diesel is about 36-40" above the sole. That may be too high, with the heat rising rapidly and not warming the cabin properly. The Dickinson unit is mounted closer to the sole and also puts out more BTU. The Espar
uses forced hot air and has the best distribution.

   As far as the original thread with a quote that the installer says it will take 16 hours - I can't imagine why it would take a professional installer 16 hours to put in a pre-packaged Espar unit. You can install most of the ducting yourself in a few hours. The electrical hookup is half an hour at most. The only real labor is locating the unit and running a line from the main diesel feed, and then installing the exhaust. The digital controller is trivial to install. If the price is not the primary determinant, I would go with Espar. By the way, Swan, Najad, Malo, Sweden Yachts and other major Swedish boatbuilders all use Espar.

   Another unit worth considering is the Mizuno or Mikumi (not sure of the exact name). Looks an awful lot like the Espar, and made me wonder if they aren't actually the same unit. The specs look almost identical.

   For more specific information about the Eberspacher D4 with two outlets, DIY kit from MMS, go to www.eberspacher.com/marine1.php?section=marine.  The price is listed as about 1,000 British Pounds (about $1,450). If you shop around, you might be able to find it here in the U.S. for even less money.

regards, Harvey									   February 2002
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Harvey,
   Our Force 10 propane  is about 25" from the sole. We have a small "end table" next to the entry into the head/forward berth and the base of the heater sits about 10" above the table on which I installed decorated tile for a "hearth". It does a great job of keeping the main salon warm and a good job of keeping the forward berth warm without fans. 'Course it's not the arctic here in the Chesapeake! I do think we'll have some payback time before Spring with all this pretty nice weather.

Bill Truxall									  	   February 2002
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   Wow.  I knew it generated some water but I had no idea it was that much.

   I have a straight run to the deck fitting from the heater.  The heater is mounted about 24-30" from the sole and the flue/chimney is about 36-40" long.  The chimney is about 1" (ID)...it just fits over the exhaust fitting on the heater. Suggestions to reduce interior moisture?

Tad McDonald									   February 2002
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   What is the diameter of the venting flue that goes through the coach roof?  I presently have a Force 10 Cozy Cabin Diesel heater. It uses a pressurized tank, and a Primus type of burner. It looks a lot better than it performs. It was a bit too cozy for comfort, when it flamed out of control and practically burned up the boat. I subsequently learned how to use it at less risk, but still don't feel comfortable with it. I had thought of converting to the Propane version, but the notion of adding yet another propane line into the cabin was not appealing. The worst part of the Cozy Cabin Force 10 is that it just doesn't put out enough heat to really warm things even during our San Diego winters (temps in the  40's), and is near worthless when the companionway is open to the cockpit.
   In the event that we end up trucking north to Seattle and then sailing up to Alaska, I was considering a better heater. We were impressed with the performance and heat output of the Espar heater on boats we used in Pacific Northwest. Anyone have experience comparing the Espar and the Dickinson. The Espar uses ducting, with a proper thermostat, and was really a delight. Turn
the thermostat up and in 5 minutes the cabin is warm as toast. But price is about $2,000 (U.S.), and installation may be complicated.

 regards, Harvey									       August 2002
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   My Force 10 has a separate 1 gal tank mounted beneath a settee. Since it is below the heater, gravity feed won't work. The tank is airtight and is pressurized using a small bicycle pump.

   An electric pump would have to have a pressure cut-off switch like your fresh-water pump, or a return system like the engine. Both sound like a pain and a lot more to fail, but I have no personal experience to base this upon.  Can't tell you about spills - I've never had to use the heater in the Caribbean! :-)

Charlie         s/v Kamaloha         T37        #542					     October 2003
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   That's a lot of BTU for the Chesapeake. I'm in Norfolk and I find my Force 10 Propane to be quite sufficient. Not to mention a 1"chimney hole versus a 3''.

Okennon        #151									     October 2003
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   I tried to do that in a comparison of the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater. It can be purchased in either Diesel of Propane versions.  I focused on this model as it only requires a 1" hole in the deck, rather
than the more common 3" hole. The flue cap is fairly unobtrusive. (But see comment below about the flue guard). The same flue diameter pipe is used for both the Diesel and the Propane.  They do not consume any electrical energy (in comparison to the Espar and Webasto diesel heaters).

    I bought the Diesel unit, and don't like it. But I can try to reconstruct my experience, pro and con.
The BTU out put of the Diesel is slightly higher than that of the propane. The main advantages of Diesel are that it is much safer to use than Propane.  Propane leaks are wildly explosive.  Diesel burns with a drier flame, whereas propane tends to produce a lot of moisture in a closed cabin.
Diesel fuel is easily available.

   Now for the downside:

The burner is the same type of old fashioned burner that is found in small Primus backpacking stoves.

The Diesel unit requires priming with alcohol and uses a pressurized 1Gallon tank that provides the fuel supply. Filling the tank is a pain, as there is no simple way to determine how much fuel you still have left in the tank. I put the tank in a locker behind the dinette bench seat.

Dirt in the fuel can plug the burner.

Failure to adjust the control correctly can result in flames and burning diesel fuel spurting all over the place. The heat output is OK, once you do have it adjusted correctly. But I had a fire with our unit, with flaming diesel fuel spurting all over the place. It taught me the value of knowing how to use your fire extinguisher on the first try. I finally adjusted the burner, and take great care to use lots of alcohol to fully heat the burner during the priming operation.  A major factor in my decision was based on the mistaken idea that Propane might be hard to get in northern British Columbia and Alaska. I recently found out that propane is readily available in most places.

It gives off smell of diesel.

Even when reasonably well adjusted, it results in soot on the cabin liner.

You simply CANNOT allow an inexperienced person to light this. Priming it when you are in rough water is risky, as the flaming alcohol can slop out of priming cup and onto the cabin floor. 

The Propane unit on the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater has a built in oxygen sensor. When the oxygen level in the cabin falls too low, the unit shuts down.

It is easy to light.

The heat output is somewhat less than the Diesel.

   I disliked the notion of running yet another propane hose line into the cabin. You cannot tap a Tee into a propane line to the stove. (ABYC standards, I understand.) It is considered unsafe to do so.
But a second propane appliance in the cabin raises the risk of fire/explosion.

   The Diesel unit is about 30-50% more expensive than the Propane. I wish I could tell you that it is worth it. The only half decent news is that I can now light it reasonably safely, and that I can buy a burner to convert from Diesel to Propane for about half the price of a completely new unit. I still
dislike the notion of adding another propane appliance.

   The 1" flue is very nice, as it is less obtrusive, but the guard on the cover on the deck is held in place with 3 very skimpy and poorly done welds.  It came off one day when I just gently brushed against it. I have to disassemble the whole deck fitting to have it re-welded.  The company claims that it is safe to run the heaters while sailing. I am unhappy about the notion of running it while sailing.

   My experience on other boats with Espar heaters is far more favorable, but also has downsides. You turn up the thermostat and the heat goes on.  It is a forced hot air system, with ductwork to deliver the heat to desired locations. Thus the heat distribution is much better than on a single diesel furnace such as the Dickinson or the Force 10. But the installation can be more complicated.  It does give off an odor of burning diesel, and can get mildly nauseating.  They generate far more BTUs than the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heaters.  MUCH more expensive. i.e., ca. $2,000 vs. $300 (assuming you do your own installation).

   It also depends upon where you live. If you are in the Caribbean, you probably worry more about chilling your beer than heating your cabin.  In Southern California, the Force 10 is adequate most of the time.  In British Columbia and Alaska the Espar type of heater is the only way to go. Most of the boats in Seattle and further north use Espar, as do many of the boats in Sweden.

   Hope this helps you make a decision.

regards, Harvey									     October 2003
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   I bought a Force 10 propane heater for my boat but still need to install it. I saw a picture on the FTP site of one installed on Lorna Doone.  It looked like they installed it the same way I was planning on doing it except that I thought it might be necessary to add a layer of ceramic tile to the bulkhead to protect the wood from the heat. The owners of Lorna Doone did not do this and there does not appear to be any sign of damage to the wood on their boat.  
   Does anyone have any experience with this heater?  Is it OK to install it without an insulating layer of tile?  Any additional advice regarding this project would be appreciated.  Thanks.
John Lewis 										      January 2004
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John,
   I have the Force 10 Diesel heater. I strongly suggest that you put an insulating panel wherever the heater is adjacent to a wood panel. A simple "standoff" mount of a sheet of stainless steel works well.

regards, Harvey									     January 2004
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Hi Harvey, 
   Hollis told me that he had put the diesel heater on his first boat and that it was so hot he considered it dangerous. So, I think the diesel gets a lot hotter than the propane model...   kerosene stoves certainly get a lot hotter than propane stoves...

   Do you know how many BTUs your heater puts out?

John Lewis										      January 2004
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John,
    Our Force 10 propane heater is mounted directly to the wood bulkhead, without any insulating tile. There are little ceramic fiber or asbestos insulating washers where the mounting bracket meets the wood. I'm not sure when or by whom it was installed.
 
   We've only used it a few times, as it is very fuel-hungry and tends to make the cabin very damp, but haven't noticed any heating of the bulkhead, and there are no signs of long-term overheating: discoloration of the wood, etc.
 
Frank Timmons 	V42 	Magic Dragon		Deltaville, VA			     January 2004
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John,
   I have the same heater that came with my boat. It had a piece of thin plywood behind it which was very unattractive. I had a piece of 3/16" copper cut to the correct shape and used some insulating spacers between the metal and the bulkhead. I am real happy with the results. I do believe it is necessary to insulate the bulkhead from the heat of the furnace.

   Correction - I used a sheet of insulating material, cut slightly smaller than the copper, behind the copper sheet and small round insulating disks under the furnace's mounting feet.

Alan Jett										      January 2004
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Alan,
   Back before my boat was delivered Sailnet ran a sale on Force 10 propane heaters and I bought one and stuck it in the garage for a year.  I installed it a few weeks ago so I could use the boat in comfort during our San Francisco winter.  
 
   Thanks to those of you who advised me about the pros and cons of their heater installations on their boats.  Harvey told me about the biggest problem I faced which was the flimsy chimney cap that Force 10 provides with this unit.
 
   It was pretty obvious from looking at the Force 10 cap that it would not last too long on the deck of a sailboat and Harvey verified that he kicked the protective bail (that had been spot-welded on the cap) off of his. All Force 10 offered as a solution was to sell him another one for 50 bucks. 
 
   My boat was delivered with an anchor rode hawse pipe that was intended to be installed over the chain locker.  I did not need it since the lighthouse windlass had the chain route below covered in its design.   So, I had the metal shop cut the Force 10 chimney cap and weld it into the hawse fitting.  I also had them cut off the pipe that was designed to poke through the deck.  
 
   The result is shown in photos that Harvey just uploaded for me onto the FTP site.  Here's the URL
 
ftp://tognews.com/Heater_Flue_Installation_JohnLewis 

   I have used this heater quite a bit over the past few weekends and can report taht the chimney draws just fine with the chimney cap down in the haws fitting.  Green water over the deck does not leak below either.
 
   The only part of this project that remains is to put a placard near the gas solenoid switch to remind me to take the cap off before using the heater.  I also see that OSHA has carbon monoxide detectors on sale this weekend.
 
John Lewis										     October 2004
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John,
    I never liked the Force 10 chimney cap either, and have been very happy with a low-profile Vetus stainless steel mushroom ventilator (the current model is $65 at West Marine) I installed more than 15 years ago. It can normally be left open without admitting rain or spray. In heavy seas, the cap can be screwed down on its mounting flange. Your solution appears to be equally functional.
 
   The most common problem I find with propane heater installations when I'm doing survey inspections is that the heater's fuel supply line is not continuous (no joints) from the propane locker. Unfortunately, most aftermarket installations are tee'd into the galley stove supply line, typically somewhere in the bilge...a big mistake.
 
   The Force 10 Cozy Cabin heaters are well built and throw off quite a bit of heat (especially with a rheostat-controlled Vetus fan installed alongside the chimney just below the headliner). They're somewhat self-defeating, however, because you need to ventilate the cabin (leave a port open) to ensure an adequate oxygen supply. For the sake of efficiency and safety, I prefer Force 10's direct vent heater, which has a sealed combustion chamber. It draws combustion air from outside rather than inside the boat. Unfortunately, it costs twice as much ($800 at West Marine) as the cozy cabin model. Hopefully, as more sealed combustion chamber heaters come onto the market, prices will come down.
 
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			   October 2004
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Sue, 
    Fortunately we don’t face the same kind of weather here in San Francisco as you can have in the winter in Annapolis.  The little force 10 is more than enough for my boat and I leave the dorade vents and port in the head open all the time so I think we get enough ventilation.  The force 10 has a feature that cuts off the flame if the oxygen tension drops to 95% of normal.  I also added a CO detector.
 
   I did install the propane line as one continuous line from the propane locker.  Actually it was easier than getting the line to the other side of the boat and tee into the stove.  I also installed a second solenoid for the heater line so both appliances are not connected to the tank if they don’t need to be. 
 
   I spent years avoiding propane on my last boat but when I sailed to Hawaii I decided that lighting the kerosene stove was pretty dangerous too, so I use propane and am pretty careful about the quality of the installation.  What do you think about propane detectors?  I have been considering adding one of those too. 
 
John Lewis										    October 2004
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John,
    I wish more of my clients would do their homework (as you've obviously done) before installing propane appliances. I agree, the small Force 10 heater works well in moderate climates and for incidental use. However, the sealed combustion chamber units are definitely the way to go if you live onboard or sail in areas with colder temperatures.
 
   On the typical diesel powered auxiliary sailboat, equipped with one or more propane appliances, I'd install a propane detector, smoke detector, and CO detector - in that order of priority.
 
   The primary hazard with propane appliances is a fuel leak (explosion/fire), followed by oxygen depletion (suffocation). Galley stoves that meet ABYC standards are equipped with flame failure devices that shut off the flow of gas to the burner if flame is not present. However, they don't have oxygen depletion sensors. Hence the warning placard required on all propane galley stoves, "Not to be used for comfort heating."
 
   With propane appliances, oxygen depletion will kill you before carbon monoxide can. The ABYC standards require "attended" appliances (those that are used when personnel are in the accommodation space where the appliance is installed, and that require frequent attention from the operator), like Force 10's cozy cabin heater, to be equipped with an oxygen depletion sensor as well as a flame failure device. Unattended propane appliances (those intended to function without frequent attention by an operator, and that may cycle on and off automatically) including refrigerators, and thermostatically controlled cabin and water heaters, are required to have a sealed combustion chamber that eliminates the oxygen depletion hazard.
 
   The National Fire Protection Association is about to release an updated version of NFPA 302, Fire Protection Standard for Pleasure & Commercial Motor Craft (1998) that will require the installation of RV-approved smoke detectors on boats with accommodation spaces.
 
   ABYC doesn't require the installation of propane detectors because LPG is manufactured with an odorant to facilitate leak detection. Unfortunately, due to chronic sinusitis, I've lost much of my sense of smell. Consequently, a propane detector is as important to me as a gas vapor detector is to the owner of a boat equipped with a CO-producing gasoline generator or inboard propulsion engine. (ABYC requires a CO detection system on all boats with enclosed accommodation spaces and a gasoline generator or inboard propulsion engine.)
 
   On diesel powered boats, the most likely source of CO is an adjacent boat with a gasoline generator or inboard propulsion engine.
 
 Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			   October 2004
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John,
    The warning placard on your Force 10 cozy cabin heater can omit the "not to be used for comfort heating" portion of ABYC's ventilation warning [required for propane galley stoves] since it has a stack for ducting exhaust products to the exterior of the boat. However, your Force 10 heater should have a warning placard with the following:
 
"Warning! - Open flame heating appliances consume oxygen and produce carbon monoxide. To avoid asphyxiation, injury or death, maintain open ventilation when using these appliances." 
 
   Per ABYC, the placard is to be posted in the immediate vicinity of the appliance, where readily seen.
 
   When shopping for propane or carbon monoxide sensors, look for the UL-Marine mark: http://www.ul.com/marine/ . Currently, there are no UL Marine approved smoke detectors, so your best bet is to use one made for the RV market.
 
Susan Canfield	Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			     October 2004
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Susan, 
   I believe that the Wallas from Finland, was specifically designed for Marine use. 
 
   We ended up with the Force 10 Diesel/Kerosene heater. I'm not wild about it. It is prone to flaring up, leaves an odor of burning diesel in the cabin, and probably consumes much oxygen. I mounted a Carbon Monoxide detector a few feet away from it. 
 
   All told, I don't really like it, but was reluctant to run yet another propane line into the cabin. The Force 10 Propane heater does have an oxygen sensor. When the oxygen falls below a safety level (?), the propane shuts off. 

regards, Harvey									    October 2004
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   There were several things that turned me off of the hot water type heaters.  
 
   First the installation would have been a major project requiring major cutting of woodwork in the cabin.  
 
   The fuel pump for these systems is really noisy and, worse yet, its an intermittent noise that would drive me nuts when trying to sleep. 

   The heaters make a putt-putt sort of noise when they are operating.
 
   The guy I had give me an estimate on installing one made a major pitch for installing an electric heater for use at the dock to cut down on wear and tear on the diesel heater.  By the time he finished that presentation he had talked himself out of an order.
 
   The most attractive thing about the circulating water type of heater was its ability to heat water for domestic use.  
 
   The Force 10 propane heater appears to be more than I need in SF bay.  I rarely run it full blast for more than 10 or 15 minutes and usually end up turning it off within a half hour of starting it.  I don’t know what the propane usage is but don’t think its much.  My last 20 lb tank lasted a year and a half for stove use only.  Even if the heater doubles my propane consumption it will be acceptable. 
 
   I have observed no condensation associated with its use.  I have heard that condensation is a problem with most heaters in really cold damp places where the temperature of the hull will condense the water vapor in the breath of the people on the boat.  
 
   I do have a little electric heater for use at the dock but don’t like tripping over it so I rarely use it. 
 
   About the only other heater I plan to install is one that works off the boats engine.   Harvey sings the praises of that arrangement and the idea of having a heating register at the foot rest of my inside steering station is very attractive.  
 
John Lewis										    October 2004
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Hi Sue,
   Is there any way to retrofit a "sealed" combustion chamber on older heaters, such as the Force 10 Cozy Cabin Diesel. I worry about the possibility of Carbon Monoxide, oxygen depletion, and just the general stink and soot.

   One of the units I recently read about that sounds quite good is the Wallas 30D. It draws air for combustion from the outside via a double walled pipe, is very efficient, uses little electricity, and apparently is quite safe. (Also very expensive with the frightening drop in the value of the dollar against most foreign currencies.)

regards, Harvey									    January 2005
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Harvey,
   Unfortunately, there's no conversion kit for Force 10's Cozy Cabin diesel heater. However, their Cozy Cabin propane heater is ABYC-compliant since it has an oxygen depletion sensor/fuel shutoff system . A comparable sensor/fuel shutoff system has not been developed for diesel heaters. Consequently, to be ABYC-compliant, a diesel heater must have a sealed combustion system (like Force 10's newer Direct Vent heater).
  
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			    January 2005
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John,
   Looks like a 'cool' unit (esthetically, not thermally). I have the Force 10 diesel. In part, I may have chosen it for the wrong reasons - I liked the fact that the flue only required a 1" hole in the coach roof, rather than a 3" hole. The profile of the vent on the outside was less obtrusive. I thought that a 6,000 BTU unit should be adequate for Southern California. I didn't think that having to prime it with alcohol was all that bad, after using similar heaters on mountaineering trips for much of my life. I also had the concern that I would be sailing in areas in the Pacific Northwest where it is difficult to obtain propane. (There is some validity to that. In almost all of places that we stopped 
along the way to Alaska, and we only stopped in about 5 proper harbors in a month, the only place to get propane was usually at some heating supply place that was usually 5-10 miles from the docks. That was true in Ketchikan and in Juneau, two of the larger town in Alaska.)

   I was reaaaaly wrong on a few of the critical things. The biggest pain is having to prime the damned thing. If you don't do it right, you can have flaming diesel fuel spitting out around the heater. It actually started a dangerous fire that required two fire extinguishers to put out. I finally learned to really let it prime with a lot more alcohol than I originally thought necessary. But priming it when under sail is not very appealing. The alcohol sloshes around and can start a fire of its own. This can be dealt with by using an igniting paste containing either gas or alcohol. As it turns out, even here in So California, it doesn't put out enough heat, unless I close the companionway doors and hatch. That makes for a potentially unhealthy environment. Your larger flue is part of having a higher BTU output, and is probably the better tradeoff.

   I also think that the unit you showed in your photos provides better protection from the flame. The Force 10 Cozy Cabin Diesel that I have has an exposed open combustion chamber. Scares the hell out of me sometimes. It also requires a 1 gallon pressurized day tank. This means that you have to use a small compressor to pressurize the tank to about 20 lbs. That's a bit of a hassle, and I dealt with it by buying a small tire compressor that runs on 12 Volts, though I understand that the 
company has suggested that you might get by with a small pressure pump to directly pump the diesel from a non-pressurized day tank.

   I was just looking at the new Force 10 heater with an external air intake and sealed combustion unit. It has a higher BTU output.  But that only works with their propane heater, not a diesel. In addition, it requires a 3" hole in the coach, and probably a protruding exhaust stack.

   Maybe the best solution would be to head to the Caribbean!

regards, Harvey									    January 2005
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Harvey,
   It was recommended to me, by Irvin Allen of Sigmar sales, to use paraffin for the pre-heat.  He said alcohol has two poor aspects.  First, it will "flare up" when initially lighting and second it is often difficult to see if there is a flame in the unit while burning.  Upon his suggestion, I purchased a couple bottles of paraffin/lamp oil from Walmart along with a small measuring shot glass.  1 oz is all that is required for the Sigmar and the shot glass gives me the right amount each time.  I'm sure it's not critical, but I wanted to develop some consistency with the pre-heat cycle. It usually will burn 10 minutes and then the heater lights right up when the fuel is turned on.  I plan on storing the paraffin in some of the REI MSR fuel canisters for extra safety.  The oil comes in a flimsy plastic bottle.
www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47575375&parent_category_rn=5760743&vcat=REI_SEARCH

   I will also add that Irwin Allen is one of the most knowledgeable people on the practical usage of diesel heaters that I spoke with while doing research.  He's patient with my 1 million questions and has helped at every step of the way with a positive attitude.  To be honest, I haven't experienced this level of customer support in a very long time!  He's truly a great guy who really knows his stuff and returns phone calls!!  If anyone has questions on Sigmar diesel heaters, he can be reached at 
iallen@Uniserve.com.  His phone number is listed under the sales section at www.sigmarine.com/contacts.htm.   Many of the Sigmar heaters are on backorder.  The unit I was sent was a demo model used at a trade show.  It's physically perfect and I'm very impressed with the quality which I consider first rate.  It was even shipped with protective plastic everywhere on the polished stainless surfaces.

   The Sigmar heater is a gravity fed heater.  The electric pump only serves to fill the reservoir on the carburetor.  Once the reservoir is filled, a float shuts off the fuel supply to the reservoir.  The gravity feed to the heater is done via a jet similar to that of a motorcycle carburetor.  The jet is connected to the knob on the top of the carb.  Very neat and simple setup! The manual even has a section explaining how the heater works which was very enlightening and helps me understand what is going on when the heater is operating.  It's quite a bit more complex than what I thought and I marvel at the engineering which went into the heater design.

   I haven't tried firing up the heater while sailing, but the specs show that it will work with I believe 15 degrees of heel.  I wouldn't have any issues firing it up in the right conditions, since the heater is completely sealed once the mica window door is shut.  I'll report back once I use the heater at anchor.

   Regarding the installation, I wanted there to be a dramatic effect when you walked down the companionway.  I think I achieved this since the flame is one of the first things seen when coming down the ladder. Very welcoming. It also allows visibility to the flame from just about everywhere in the main cabin.  I wanted this for safety reasons.  One fact I left out is that I tried using the polished clamps directly on the compression post and found that the two polished stainless surfaces did not provide enough friction to hold the heater in place.  I went back to Walmart and purchased a $3 bike inner-tube and cut it in behind the clamp.  It now does not budge.

   Probably a lot more than you wanted to hear.  Can you tell I really like this diesel heater?  :)

John	s/v Celtic Dream	www.TayanaOwners.org				     January 2005
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John,
   Sorry for the length of this response, but because of my own experience with this matter, it prompted this detailed commentary.

   The story about the diesel heater fire is almost the same thing that happened to me, but with less personal injury - but more because of dumb luck than smarts on my part.

   The Force 10 Cozy Cabin uses a pressurized   1 Gallon reserve tank. The burner itself is actually just an old fashioned Primus design, the same sort used in old Svea backpacking stoves. The difference only being that the Svea used white gasoline, and this uses diesel. If you don't have 
the cog wheel drive for the needle in the orifice set correctly, it can open and not close properly. After making some minor adjustment on the burner, and pressurizing the tank, I primed and lighted the burner. It didn't quite catch right, and started spewing flaming diesel. I tried to shut it down with the valve on the burner, but it couldn't close completely because I had missed the exact alignment position for the cog wheel. Flaming drops of diesel were spilling on the floor and onto a small cardboard box sitting on the floor. At that point I grabbed a small fire extinguisher and pulled the safety and tried to squeeze it - nothing happened. I grabbed a second one, and same thing.  I grabbed a piece of tarp and tried to smother the flames without much luck. I picked up the fire extinguisher and realized that I was supposed to push a trigger not pull it!! I managed to stop the fire at that time. I also released the pressure cap on the reserve tank, and the fuel finally 
stopped flowing at about the same time.

   The fire extinguisher made an incredible mess of the cabin, but the boat was intact, other that a bit of damage to the varnish.

   But there were several things that struck me afterwards. I remember being possessed by an anger at the damned fire that I felt was about to destroy my beloved boat. That was OK, but really stupid. I might well have been trapped down below. A boat cabin is a really small and enclosed place. I also hadn't trained myself to really think out the sequence of operations necessary. I also realized that I was on the verge of a panic response when the fire extinguishers initially didn't discharge. If the panic and anxiety had won out, I either would have been badly injured, or I could have lost the boat.

   PRACTICE USING A FIRE EXTINGUISHER! Particularly the specific brands that you have on the boat. In my usual compulsive way, with the safety orientation and backup mentality you learn in Med School, mountaineering and kayaking, I had 4 or 5 fire extinguishers within a few feet of where it happened. But I had never thought about actually using them. I assumed that they were the same as the type I learned to use 50 years ago. Pull the safety, and squeeze with your fingers towards your palm. NO! This type required that you  pull the safety and then press your thumb forward. Seemed obvious in retrospect, and why would I want to waste a perfectly new fire extinguisher just to test myself?? Dumb ass thing on my part. The particular brand had a nice handle that you wrap you fingers around, and I kept squeezing that. But it was only there to provide a stable grip on the unit, not to discharge the contents.

   I tried to use a tarp to extinguish the fire, but the continuing discharge of hot flaming diesel fuel was the big problem. In addition, the tarp was not fireproof, so it was really lucky that it didn't catch 
fire and make things worse. I should have had a "Fire Blanket". I tried to buy one after that, but couldn't find one. Your notes now prompt me to do so. If used in those situations where they are most appropriate, they can be the most appropriate first response. When we used to have alcohol stoves on boats, small fire blankets were the first line of defense.

So, there were two major aspects of the event:
1)	Bad design of the heater combined with my having misaligned the cog wheel when trying to figure out why it wasn't working quite right.
2)	Failure to have done proper fire drills.
3)	As to the bad design of the heater, it reflects the complete lack of proper safety standards in the design of that particular heater. I don't know about other units, and I certainly recognize that many people have used this type of heater for well over 100 years. I also should stress that I like a nice warm cabin both at anchor, and when sailing all day. I'm sure that the manufacturers will insist that the fault was mainly a result of the way I used it. I don't think that excuses the poor design.
4)	But I'll save my views on the several bad design features of open diesel heaters for another note. My only comment would be that I think that heaters such as the Wallas or Espar are inherently safer for a  number of reasons. Their drawbacks are few: Cost, they require electrical power consumption when operating, more complex and maintenance is tricky when things go wrong, and installation is more difficult with fans, ductwork, etc. But they use an external air source, a sealed combustion chamber, very little prospect of carbon monoxide in the boat, the heater itself can be in an isolated locker reducing the possibility of getting burned by touching the unit, no possible spray of flaming diesel fuel into the boat, no need to go through the cautious stages of priming, and you can run them while sailing at any angle of heel. You can have a complete novice to the boat come aboard and safely turn it on and off.
5)	The exhaust/intake vent on the Wallas is extremely well designed, and can be placed in a remote location (even just below the aft cap rail) avoiding any possible entanglement in lines, avoiding possible burning hands, etc. The only concern might be if a following sea could enter the exhaust, but careful placement can deal with that. And the idea of just flipping a switch and relying on a thermostat to maintain temperature is really nice. We had an Espar on a boat that we sailed for several years in British Columbia. In September it can be chilly in the morning. 

   I could nearly reach out of our bunk to start it going in the morning, and 10 minutes later, the cabin was toasty warm. I could have even put a timer on it, if it had been my own boat. When sailing on chilly days, I would let it run, and the forced hot air would blow up into the companionway and keep us warm in the cockpit. The only drawbacks, once installed, are the use of electricity and occasional maintenance of the fuel injector jet.

   As for propane heaters, they are even more scary, thanks to the very substantial danger of explosion. Getting propane is not as easy as some may think when you are in remote parts. They are convenient and easy to light, and give off clean heat. They probably are a bit better designed than the diesel units. But the safety concerns and open flame, hot surface, etc., do pose problems that can't really be denied.

regards, Harvey									January 2005
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